Leak in Kenmore Front Loader - Cracked shell?

[48zip]

It leaks a little during normal cycle, but really flows during final spin, when drum is at its highest speed.

Does this mean a new shell, or can it be sealed. Also, can a decent DIY do this? I'm sure not afraid to try!

Thanks

[Mad Mac]

Given your circumstances, I'd give it a try with some kind of epoxy patch, or the fibreglass repair kits for car bodies - after all, what do you have to lose?

[Jake]

Hi,

Watch were the water is dripping from when its in the normal cycle and drain. Many of these i have seen have a bad tub seal(the seal thats in between the front and rear shell where it bolts together). I have tryed sealant , but always continued to leak. You would have to replace the tub seal, thats very labor intensive. You would have to take the complete shell out of the machine to do it.

Those 2 large holes in your picture are normal, i see them on all the Frigidaire and the Frigidaire made Kenmore Front Loaders like yours is,and i have never seen water come out of those.

Also check the top of the shell where the black hose from the dispenser comes into the tub, i have seen that come loose and drip water down the sides of the tub.

Jake

[48zip]

Thanks. The fact that the leak is much greater when in high speed spin would lead me to believe it's not related to the dispenser. I'm guessing the high centrifugal force is pushing water out of the drum somewhere. It definitely could be the seal, particularly if you say the cracks are normal (very helpful info)

I'll dig a little deeper. Water splashed onthe right side (inside of cabinet). It's so darn fast it's tough to locate the source.

I'll definitely report back.

[Jake]

Your welcome 48zip,

Good Luck.:cool:

Jake

[jnicosia]

any news/updates on your washer ?

[48zip]

Only update is I've been too lazy to look again. I'm going to try to look as much as I can with limited visibilty. The probably try to tightenthe bolts holding the two shell halves together, in case they've vibrated loose alittle.

Any other ideas?

[Jake]

Believe me, I have tryed to tighten the bolts onmany shells, but its temporary, as within a week or so it will leak again, The only solution is to put a new tub seal in, im sorry to say.

Jake

[48zip]

Thanks. Re: shell removal. Is it fairly simple, out through the front? Or is it easier to access through the rear? Would the repair manual help for this, or is it fairly straight forward once disassembly begins.

I'm fairly competent as long as I have a Xanax available to keep down the temper. :)

[Mad Mac]

Oh, you're going to need plenty of Xanax or something like that for this job. You've got to take the cabinet OFF!!!!

Jeff, one of our moderators, has very kindly posted some pictures at his site:

http://www.applianceaid.com/frigidaire_frontload_washer.html

Good luck!

[Jake]

Actually, I aways have a helper come with me to the consumers home, we change all seals and the rear bearing shell on site. The Shell is very heavy, and those 2 top springs are very tight, a helper can help hold the shell up while you take those 2 tops springs off. Its better to takethe shell assemblyout from the rear, but on these, i take the back panel off and the top panel, and the front rubber boot off from the lip of thefront panel.

I would recommend the manual thats listed on the link to Jeff's page Mad Mac provided , its a very big and time consuming job to do.

Good Luck.:cool:

Jake

[davej]

Jake, I too have the problem with water dripping out between the two tub halves. The washer is less than 3 years old. I had the cabinet opened and watched to see if the water was coming from anywhere on top and it is dry on the top. So I can only assume that it leaking from the seal on the bottom side of the tub. It is a slow drip during a normal wash cycle but really speeds up during the spin cycle.

I looked up the part on the repair clinic.com and they show two seals where as my Sears part book shows only one seal. From your experience is this a 1 or 2 piece seal?

Also do you need to use sealent along with the seal?

Whats your thoughts on also changing the tub bearing while the machine is tore down? No problems as of yet.

Any other words of advice you may have?

Thanks for all of your help

Dave

[Jake]

Its just 1 seal that mounts in between the 2 shell halves.

http://www.applianceblog.com/archives/shellseal.jpg (http://www.repairclinic.com/referral.asp?R=1265&N=936915)



Its not a bad idea to change the rear shell assembly as well, buts its pretty expensive.

Its fine to puta thin coat ofsealant in the seal grove before you install the new seal.

Jake

[davej]

Jake, what would you recommend I use for a sealant?

I was think of taking the bearing out of the wash tub and taking it to a local bearing supply company to see if they would be able to match it. I have read on some of the other post that this seems to be an option other than buying the whole rear assembly. I have plenty of time to spend on the washer.

Dave

[Jake]

I use a White Silicon Sealant, you can get at any hardware store: Home Depot, True Value, better yet if there is a appliance parts Store in your town, that would be the best place to get it.:)

Thats a good idea on the bearing, since im seeing many post that as well.:cool:

Good Luck,

Jake

[bwp19]

Count me as another person with this problem.
Mine only seems to leak during spin, particularly
when there is lots of shaking.
Most of the water seems to be running down the
support post/shock absorbers on either side.

I was all set to live with this problem because
I didn't feel like replacing the tub or seal.
But now I am getting no spin at all. I ran
through the troubleshooting sheet and found
that the fuse on the speed control board was
blown. The troubleshooting sheet says I should
replace the whole board ($150).

Has anyone ever seen this fuse blow before? Is
there a cheaper fix other than replacing the whole
board? How sure can I be sure that a new board will
do the trick?
(I already tried a new fuse, and it blew right away).

[jnicosia]

DaveJ, You can get the bearing from McMaster-Carr industrial supply. Send me a private message, I have a document that has the details on how to perform this repair and the bearing part numbers. It will run you about $40 for the 2 bearings and the bearing seal. Drum seal not included, you'll need to get that from an appliance parts place.

john_nicosia -at- hotmail.com

[jnicosia]

Bad Motor Control Board:

I have seen this, I found a machine curbside trashwith this problem and fixed it by buying a new control board. The blown fuseusually indicates that the drive transistors on the motor control board are shorted/bad. They are custom part numbers and I have never been able to find replacement transistors. The newer boards have been improved as I think Frigidaire tried to fix this problem.

Anyway a few suggestions:

1) Make sure you test the motor per the instructionson the tech sheet to make sure the motor is not bad as well

2) I have seen thesecontrol boards for sale on EBAY for less than $40 several times ! I saw this after I paid $130 for one new. Just checked, but there is not one there now, but if you keep checking, you will probably find one within 3-4 weeks.

3) If you are a hacker, you can have my old motor control board and take off the good transistors, and perhaps fix yours with my parts. Just pay for the shipping to you.

Your best bet is probably buy a new one from repairclinic.com.

Best wishes and let us know how you make out by posting back here.

-John

[bwp19]

Thanks for the info on the motor control board.

Because this problem was on top of a possibly
cracked shell, I opted to give up on this
machine and buy a new washer.
But I will keep the old one and watch for a
board to come up on ebay.

[jnicosia]

If I were buying a new washer, I'd probably buy the SpeedQueen front loader. Based on a commercial model that is time tested, proven design...now available for the home. A bit more expensive than the Frigidaire model, but should last 20-25 years no problem.

http://www.speedqueen.com/home/products/ats90awn.asp

Also another unit to check out is the Staber machine. Loads from the top, but has a horizontal drum, less expensive than the SpeedQueen, but also built like a tank !

http://www.staber.com/


Let us know what you decide

[jnicosia]

There is a motor control board on EBAY right now, item #7500821846

[Matt_Zelkowitz]

Hi there,
I am yet another Kenmore 417 owner whose machine has developed a leak during the high speed spin cycles on the right side of the machine.

I cannot say for sure it is the seal yet, as I can only look in through the bottom quarter panel right now.

Is there a way to take the top surface of the cabinet off? I have looked for a manual online, but haven't come accross one yet.

Any help is much appreciated,
Matt

[jnicosia]

Yes, you have to take the 4 screws at the top edge of the back of the machine off. They are located on the 2 metal brackets that protrude out the back of the machine. Then slide the entire top panel forward about 4" and lift it off. I take it you do not have the dryer stacked on top of the washer.

You can also remove the back panel (although do not run the machine with the back panel off, as it is structrural), by removing the dozen or so screws that are around the perimeter of the rear panel.

Leaks from the drum seal are very common. It is a job that is on the big side of things. I have a document posted on this web site on the "forums how-to Parts removal and replacement guides" It tells you how to replace the bearings, and seal.

http://www.applianceblog.com/forums/forum18/

You can also buy a book from RepairClinic.com (as well as the replacement seal) that is published by Frigidaire Electrolux that is a service manual.

http://www.repairclinic.com/0081.asp?RccPartID=659075

However some of the stuff in my document are not in that book (bearing level replacement), but obviously the book is much more complete than my free document.

Let us know how you make out.

[Dan O.]

jnicosia wrote:
If I were buying a new washer, I'd probably buy the SpeedQueen front loader.
http://www.speedqueen.com/home/products/ats90awn.asp
Wasn't Amana selling that one under their brand name for a while? I can't remember if there was problems with Amana's version or it just wasn't very popular.

Dan O.
Appliance411.com (http://www.appliance411.com/?ref411=clothes+washer)
The Appliance Information Site
=D~~~~~~

[jnicosia]

SpeedQueen and Amana were both owned by Raytheon. Raytheon sold them off. Amana is now part of Maytag. If you go to the Amana website, no frontloaders at all today. SpeedQueen became their own company. They were focusing on laudrymat machines primarily, but when their non-compete with Amana expired for the home market, they launched a home line of machines that is basically built from their commercial machines, that are reported to be very very solid.

So in summary you will not see the new SpeedQueen frontloader being sold under the Amana name.

I hope this helps.

[Dan O.]

jnicosia wrote:
So in summary you will not see the new SpeedQueen frontloader being sold under the Amana name.
That is not what I was asking.

B4 Amana was purchased by Maytag they were in fact for a short time selling a front load washer purportedly (or assumed at the time to be) designed by Speed Queen.

>> My question was if anyone knew whether it had anything in common with the domestic front load washer Speed Queen is now selling?

This is from another forum's archive:
Post# 6923-10/14/2001-20:06 ||| magic clean (Florida)
SUBJECT: RE: Amana Front Loader
MESSAGE: Had a chance to view the Amana unit taken apart. It seemed like a very nice machine from a user standpoint. Appeared to be durably constructed. Had a stainless-steel outer drum as well. Very easy to use and understand controls. A lot like the Frigidaire... conventional rotary knobs etc. Got a copy of the sales brochure, use & care guide and video tape. Actually think the unit came out late '97. Sears did have them a short time @ $999. As mentioned they were ultimately recalled and scrapped out... with no known 'real' explanation as to what the whole problem was.

BTW. Speed Queen washer designs don't usually change very often and *if* Amana's was made or designed by them, they should have at least something in common with current Speed Queen model IMO.

You can see the Amana front load washer's parts list at this link:

LINK > Amana Front Load Washer (http://www.appliance411.com/data.php?psm=LTA85AW)

JFYI

Dan O.
Appliance411.com (http://www.appliance411.com/?ref411=Amana+Washer)
The Appliance Information Site
=D~~~~~~

[jnicosia]

Dan,

Thanks for the clarification. I was not aware of that. I am not sure why they were pulled from themarket etc. Like all the front loaders on the market, only time will tell which ones are the most bullet-proof. Speed Queen has a great repuation, and perhaps someone may post here and tell us more about the construction of the current machine.

The feedback on the gardenweb.com laundryroom forums seem to be very positive from the owners that have bought them recently.

The other machine that is US made with a commercial duty cycle is the Staber.

[Dan O.]

jnicosia wrote:
The other machine that is US made with a commercial duty cycle is the Staber.
There are commercial versions of Maytag's Neptune washer which is also made in the USA. BTW. The Staber isn't a front loader... although the wash action is similar.

JFYI

Dan O.
Appliance411.com (http://www.appliance411.com/?ref411=Maytag+Washer)
The Appliance Information Site
=D~~~~~~

[aaastan]

We are a selling dealer for the Speed Queen home laundry equipment and they are very rugged by today's standards. In the early 80's I had the priviledge of working on oldercoin-op top loading Speed Queen *Fluid Drive* models. Whoa,those babies were bullet proof. Even the drain pumps had grease fittings for the bearings. Three belts were used to minimize load related wear on the beltsin the drivetrain. They were challenging to service but now I miss 'em dearly.

I'm sorry to say that at one time we were also selling the Staber tumbler washers. After having sold onlythree of them--we were constantly repairing damaged drive pulleys/worn drive belts/broken lidswitch assemblies. We dropped it like a hot potato.

The machine is an excellent design. It's flaw is with the drumpulley--a soft aluminumthat does not lend itself well to behind attached to the steeldrum shaft and secured by two bolts tightened against the sideof the shaft at about a60 degree angle apart.After 3 to 6 months of heavy use,the aluminum pulley getsreamed-out in the center at the shaft,wobbles around andeventually falls to the floor.

I e-mailed Staber advising them of this and offering a solution that Frigidaire used to solve their top-load washer trans pulley(aluminum) failures. If you recall, those pulleys failed at the hub by getting reamed-out and falling off the bottom of the trans shaft. Frigidaire's solution was to redesign the pulley by making them out of a durable plastic with a steel insert in the center of the pulley hub. End of problem.

As far as I know, Staber has yet to improve the pulley which would stop the burnt belt problem as well. The lid switch assy is attached by two 5/16 screws into the non-corrosive plastic top of the washer. These get banged out easily and the plasticscrew holes are cracked.

Adding to this is the fact that Staber has no matching dryer and many newer homes do not have laundry equipment in the basement anymore. Customers want an attractive matching set in ahigh visibility location like the upstairs laundry room. Staber has NO warranty service network--they advertise their washer as being easy enough to be serviced by the owner. Many owners do not want to be repairing the washer or any appliance in their home(unlike some of us on this site).

If Staber simplytakes the intiative to correct the pulley design,improve the lid switch mounting and starts selling a matching dryer--they would bein amuch better position to move their product and the reputation would be undeniable. After all,this is a tumbler washer that uses a front bearingAND a rear bearing. Laundry is loadedat the top like a top loading washer. Bearing failures would bemost unlikely on a tumbler of this type.People would fall in love with it.

John

[jnicosia]

John,

This is great feedback. You are very knowledgeable. Sounds like the problems would be easy for Staber to fix. I'll bet one can find an all steel pulley at Northern or Grainger as a stock item...not that you want to spend $1200 on a washer and have to replace a pulley right away. By the sound of the company's pride in durability, I will bet they get this fixed soon.

A question has come up on this forum in the past, since you know alot about the speedqueens, perhaps you know the answer. Was Amana selling the SpeedQueen homelaundry frontloader for a while ? Someone reported that they did, just before the 'break-up" and the model was quickly recalled.

Also what is different aboutthe commerical grade versusthe home style frontloaders from Speedqueen today? How is the quality of the control unit? Bearings ? What did they change about the unit to get the price down ? Could they be expected to last 20-25 years?, which is so rare these days in appliance design lifespan, which is a shame. I really hate planned obsolescence.

Also the Neptunes were a disaster for the first 3-5 years on the market. Problems with motor control boards, mildew, wax-motors, drum bearings, etc. Has that been an issue for the commercial models as well ?

Thanks and looking forward to your reply. -John N.

PS You may want to post your findings on the GardenWeb site in the Laundry forum, there are a lot of folks that would give their eyeteeth to hear your report on the unit and company. It may create enough response to have Staber make the changes. Thx.

[aaastan]

John N,

I better clarify myself a bit. We never were in the vended side of the business--although I'd love to get in on it thru Speed Queen. This is an area where you need to have someone in your family that is related to the state senator to be able to get accepted as a route operator. The businesses who have assigned territory have been there like f-o-r-e-v-e-r.

About 1984 we picked up a client that owned a large apartment complex with older vended Speed Queen fluid drives and matching dryers. At the time those machines were about 15 years old and I was a rookie in my 2nd year as aservice tech. They were excellent machines and became the standard by which I measured everything else. Needless to say,few matched.

As for the Amana front loader--I have not seen one these. Dan O did provide a parts blow-up of one on his post and it isan identicaldesign as the current "homestyle" front loading Speed Queen. It is interesting to note that when we met our territory salesman to *seal the deal*, we were provided with lots ofsales literature that included a comparison of theS/Q top loaderwith the competition. The competitor model shown was an Amana top loader! If you read this sheet and looked over the photo images--you would see immediately that Speed Queen obviously *downgraded* their equipment for Amana models. For example,the Amana transmission has 8 moving parts--all plastic gears. The S/Q trans was all iron and 6 parts total. It seems logical that S/Q did not want give Maytag the coveted reputation as well. Smart move. With the ten year hiatus,they were bidding their time and waiting to re-enter the market.

As for the S/Qs that we have already sold--we contacted a few ofour customers by phone after one month to get their feedback. Not one complaint. They were very impressed with the solid feel and stability during spin. TheBEST thing that sells them is the fact that these machines are the very same models used in laundromats--same part numbers(excluding the big stuff like 35 pounders and larger). It'll be a few years before I can give a solidopinion on the front load model though. I had not seen these prior to dealer status.

Just for fun--I'd liketo point out that I did love those Whirlpool/Kenmore belt drives made between '63 and '72, they were darned good appliances.Hightechnologyat that time was the Lady Kenmore washer that had a quieter thin beltand about 20 cycleselector push buttons,a flourescent lit console that turned on when you flipped the protector cover away from the controls.When the spin tube on one of these got reduced to half the lengthof what it was--suddenly spin bearings were wearing out. Then the motors were changed to the square GE built ones--motors started to fail frequently. Even the so-called *wigwags* got cheapened. Good ones were black in color. Junk ones were pink. Timers became Q/D instead of wired-in. By the time the direct-drive model arrived--the belt-drives were ashadow of its former self. I knew then that the future of appliance service was changing and FAST. Computers came along and I had to accept the thing I hate most,change. Nowadays it seems natural but back then it got a little spooky for awhile.

Take care, John

[jnicosia]

Ok, great input. How about Maytag, whats the history there ? Lots of repair guys tell me that when it became Mayco, the designs got cheapened and became trash....however when I read consumer reports, with the exception of the front-load neptunes, they are some of the most reliable top loaders out there. They even still seem better made than the Frigidaire top loaders.

If you had to buy a stack unit, would you buy the whirlpool or the maytag ?

Thanks !

[aaastan]

John N,

Maytags of the 70' and 80s held there own. When the Performa models came out,this was simply a re-badged Norge/Magic Chef designand they are of lesser quality in my opinion. The stack laundry model is one I don't find appealing at all from a service point of view. I never liked the stack unit rack system. The washer has a tendency to walk itself out of it.It's a real PITA. I have not seen the Samsung-Maytag front loaders,but have heard from others that it is good. I'll have to see for myself.

The full sizeWhirlpool stack laundry center is an easy system to service. The Thin Twin 24 inch version had lots of tub support failures and thewash basketswere too small for most families. The Whirlpool/Kenmore brand today is not the worst but certainly not something to rave about either(compared to older Whirlpools).I know a lot of servicers enjoy working on these and they're right--it is a simpledesign and made in the millions--so parts availabiltity and servicer knowledge of themis excellent.

GE/Hotpoint brands have been terrible from a consumers' point of view but a boon to servicers. I'd feel guilty recommending them to my customers--soI don't.

Frigidaire has long been a disappointment in years past. Who in their right mind could defend the Franklin-designed Frigidaire dryers that used those 5 drum rollers. You know,the ones that had thoselittle plastic sleeve bearings.How about thebakelite vent ductthat would crack and fall apart. The stack laundry model dryersthat could only be serviced from the rear. Try doing oneof those where the machine is *shoehorned* into a closet. Try getting the 1/4inch rustedbolts from a washerdrain pump mounted under the motor. Pulleys wobbling off the trans shaft,the listgoes on. Then something happened--around the mid 90s things started improving. Every year it got a bit more improved to the point that none of the aforementioned items were an issue anymore. Today we do the warranty service on Frigidaires. For each manufacturer that we work with, I have downloaded and/or copied every singleservice manual and technical service bulletin. These are kept in my truck library--always on hand like tools. No other manufacturer puts out so much literature and improvement updates like Frigidaire does today. It's an impressive turn around. Are they as good as Speed Queen? No, not by a long shot but not every customer wants to spend a thousand dollars on a washer or $800 for a dryer. I believe in their product enough to be comfortable about it. I rate this brand on a par with the Whirlpool/Kenmores.

John

PS, All the Speed Queen literature is available in their website. We were given the glossy version of same for customer hand-outs.

[aaastan]

Hello everyone,

Well today I attended my first Speed Queen training seminar in Philadelphia. It was very informative and during complete teardowns of three models we were able to get our hands on them and practice re-assembly,etc. Very impressive stuff.

The models that were used were:

Top Load Washer:AWS45NW

Dryer/Electric: AES68**

Front Load Washer: CTS90**

The model that I was most interested in learning about was Speed Queen's front loader--I had never done surgery on one and was curious as to how well made they are.

The S/QF/L washer is a *very* stout design--it is plainly obvious just looking at the thing without it's clothes on(outer shell was removed). It isthe same modelused in laundromats. Part numbers are the same. It is all-American made(Ripon,Wisconsin).Most of us servicers would grin at the sight of the rear bearing housed inside the large *trunnion*. Nothing wimpy about this one. Robust and stable throughout. I'm impressed:)

John

[Dan O.]

aaastan wrote:
Front Load Washer: CTS90**

The model that I was most interested in learning about was Speed Queen's front loader--I had never done surgery on one and was curious as to how well made they are.
Did they give you any idea how much they sell for?

Just curious.

Dan O.
Appliance411.com (http://www.appliance411.com/?ref411=Speedd+Queen+Washer)
The Appliance Information Site
=D~~~~~~

[aaastan]

Dan,

The MSRP for the CTS90 was about $1300US.

John

[Dan O.]

aaastan wrote:
The MSRP for the CTS90 was about $1300US.
Not bad. How much electronics did you see in them?

Dan O.
Appliance411.com (http://www.appliance411.com/?ref411=Speed+Queen+Washer)
The Appliance Information Site
=D~~~~~~

[aaastan]

One motor controllerl board

And

One electronic timer(PCB)

John

[aaastan]

I noticed that the Speed Queen top load washer is being sold as both an Amana and a Maytag *Atlantis* model.

The Norge/Magic Chef design is still being sold as a Maytag top load and as a Performa model.

Gets dizzying after awhile trying to keep track of this stuff.

John e

[jnicosia]

Interesting,I thought that Amana had the rights to the SpeedQueen top-load machine design after the break-up, and I heard somewhere that Amana/Maytag was taking cost out of the design (changing metal for plastic parts etc). I did not realize that those machines were actually made by SpeedQueen, especially now that they are not owned by the same parent company Raytheon anymore.

Also interesting that the Amana washer with the stainless tub is $100 cheaper than the Maytag Atlantis with the stainless tub....I assume those are the ones that you are talking about being a speedqueen build.

John N

[aaastan]

I believe that Alliance Laundry Systems(S/Q) owns the design.

S/Q has made no switch to less exotic materials though.

John