Kenmore front loader - broken spider arms due to pitting

[jimo]

Because of loud noises coming from my Kenmore front loader washer (417.41142000), I called in a Sears technician. He told me (late Dec. 2004) that machine needed bearing ass'y replaced (toal estimated cost = $509 ($311 parts + $198 labor) - main parts' cost for the $219 shell-rear/bearing (part # 131525500) - described as 'rear outer assembly with bearing and shaft seal' by repairclinic.com). He determined this after listening to the machine's loud noise during the highest spin speeds. I bought the washer mid March 2001 for $600.

I declined the repairs by Sears. Because I could hear a slight non-metallic scratching noise when I rotated the inner clothes tub by hand, I decided to see if the washer's problem was not the bearing assembly. After separating the 2 outer plastic tubs, I removed the tub-spin (manufacturer part # 131618500). For an excellent pictures of the tub-spin go to repairclinic.com. Caption is a more descriptive 'inner tub with spider and shaft'. Repairclinic.com's rear end picture is much more accurate than the diagram in sears.com/partsdirect.

I found that 2 arms of the spider were broken off from the spider's hub and that the spider was badly pitted. I also saw that screw(s) on the outside of the inner tub had obviously scratched the inside of the rear outer plastic tub.The inner tub itself is in very good condition. The shaft shows some wear but no obvious corrosion.

I removed the 6 bolts that held the spider arms to the inner tub's outside edge and cleaned out the detergent from many of the pits (using a small nail without damaging the metal). The pitting on the side of the spider facing the inner tub is much worst than that on the side you see in the picture above. I found 20 instances of pitting creating holes (extending from 1 side of spider to other side) in the 5 mm. thick metal spider.

For my machine, at least, I believe
- detergent, water, dirt accumulated between spider and inner tub (especially behind spider's hub);
- this accumulation chemically reacted with the spider causing pitting;
- pitting plus rotational stress (speeds of 600 RPM to 1000 RPM) caused cracks which led to the breaking off of 2 arms;
- the less restrained inner tub now noisily scratches the outer plastic tub;
- the shaft probably now places a greater strain on the bearings because the inner tub is less well attached to it;
- the loud noise could be mainly caused by the loose spider arms flailing about.

Has anyone inspected his(her) spider for pitting? Pitting could possibly be the initial damage that leads to loud noises in some cases! Can a Sears technician distinguish between loud bearing noise and loud noise not involving the bearings? Do 2 broken spider arms definitely cause bearing damage?

[jeff1]

G'day,

**Has anyone inspected his(her) spider for pitting?**

Inspected just for that nope, seen yes.

**Can a Sears technician distinguish between loud bearing noise and loud noise not involving the bearings?**

Probably not.

**Do 2 broken spider arms definitely cause bearing damage?**

That would definetly help answer above as yes it can and *I* wouldn't take the chance on a seal and bearing after the basket has been wobbling around....this type of an breakage can also damage the front 1/2 of the outer shell....

http://www.applianceaid.com/frigidaire_frontload_washer.html#noise

jeff.

[Mad Mac]

I've never seen this on the Frigidaire-built units (I left the business before the problems with these arose), but saw it on a Maytag Neptune, same construction. The "spider" had cracked in two places , no sign of any other damage, put it down to mechanical failure.

In the tech's defence (and Jake will no doubt confirm this), these guys have a limited amount of time to spend on any one call at the first visit - typically, a Sears tech will have 10-12 calls per day (sometimes more!). Depending on experience, he **might** have rumbled that something other than just a bearing issue was going on depending on the noise exhibited. Also (and I don't know if this is your situation) if these units have the dryer stacked on the washer, a single tech is very limited in how much diagnosis he/she can do.

Chances are that anything involving that level of disassembly on those machines is going to push a paid repair into the "declined estimate" category due to labour costs. I'm not a huge believer in service agreements, but front loaders were certainly one product (the other being anything with electronic controls) I pushed them on, due to the potentially high cost of repairs.

[Dan O.]

** inspected spider for pitting? **

I have seen it as well... often were the washer was used in hard water areas but could also be affected by the type and/or amount of detergent being used for water conditions (temperature, hardness, etc.)

** Can a Sears technician distinguish between loud bearing noise and loud noise not involving the bearings? **

Without totally tearing the machine down and looking for direct evidence? I agree with Jeff, probably not (... depending on the actual type of sound and where it was thought to be originating from).

There is one other consideration. It is a very big job to get right into it to find out for certain. I wonder how many customers would be willing to pay a technician's hour+ labour to tear the machine apart and then be presented with an estimate so high it isn't worth repairing. And after that, would the technician have to spend another hour(s) to reassemble the machine again?

** I found that 2 arms of the spider were broken off from the spider's hub and that the spider was badly pitted. ... I bought the washer mid March 2001 **

Frigidaire's front load washer's inner tub is warranted for at least 5-years and on some newer models 25-years. I don't know how long Sears' warranty on that part is nor if they would just provide it to you without one of their technicians installing it.

JFYI

Dan O.
Appliance411.com (http://www.appliance411.com/?ref411=Frigidaire+washer)
The Appliance Information Site

=D~~~~~~

[Jake]

Mad Mac wrote: In the tech's defence (and Jake will no doubt confirm this), these guys have a limited amount of time to spend on any one call at the first visit - typically, a Sears tech will have 10-12 calls per day (sometimes more!). Depending on experience, he **might** have rumbled that something other than just a bearing issue was going on depending on the noise exhibited. Also (and I don't know if this is your situation) if these units have the dryer stacked on the washer, a single tech is very limited in how much diagnosis he/she can do.

Chances are that anything involving that level of disassembly on those machines is going to push a paid repair into the "declined estimate" category due to labour costs. I'm not a huge believer in service agreements, but front loaders were certainly one product (the other being anything with electronic controls) I pushed them on, due to the potentially high cost of repairs.


This is very true!:cool:

You must of been a Sears or a Wards tech as well.:cool:

When i hear that noise, i always order a rear bearing/shell assembly and the spin tub as they work hand in hand.Its very labor intensive, IF they don't have a contract, they alwaysdecline the repair. If they have the contract, its free.:)

I get maybe 2-5 a year that have this issue, As i repair all appliances, the specialized laundry techs probably see alot more.

Jake

[Mad Mac]

Ex Sears, you know how it is.

[Jake]

Yup, i understand completely.

Jake

[jnicosia]

Note to the original message poster.

I have been hearing more and more about these spider shafts breaking. Aluminum and stainless are not compatible metals so corrosion should be expected. I think we will be seeing more of these fail as time goes on and the machines out there age.

Since you have come this far you can probably do this repair yourself for not a lot of money, since you save on the labor by doing it yourself. I have a 3 page document that is the collective work of a few guys that have taken apart these tubs/drums and replaced the bearings and drum. Post a reply here with your email address and I can send you the document no charge.

You can source the bearings and seal from McMaster Carr or other places for about $40 and re-use your existing tub. No need to replace the whole rear tub half. The stainless drum should definately be under warranty. HOWEVER you will get a hard time from Sears and Frigidaire (Electrolux) as they do not want to provide these parts to the end user directly without a service call. Many guys have had success getting them from appliance parts distributors (retail) like Marcone (see your yellow pages). Some will charge you shipping and a small processing fee ($20 total) and process the part as warranty for you. You will need your owners manual with the warranty listed and your sales receipt for the purchase of the washer new.

Good luck !

[jeff1]

**You can source the bearings and seal from McMaster Carr or other places for about $40 and re-use your existing tub.**

I have seen the pics and info on changing the bearing only....problems....most people don't have an expensive bearing puller and installer....no mention of replacing the water seal, which is usually what failed and let water into the bearing!?!?....or am I all wet;) :dude:

jeff.

[jnicosia]

I forgot to mention the seal, although it is identifiedin the document I offered. The document was co-authored by a bearing specialist and he indicated that there should not be a problem in removing the old bearings carefully without a puller. It may not be practical timewise for the pro's like Jeff who are on a tight time budget, but for the homeowner (do-it-yourselfer) it should not be a too difficult. I know know of 3 guys that have done this repair with success, and 0 whom have failed.

[jeff1]

Thankx for the update :)

jeff.

[jimo]

jnicosia,
Rather than try to fix my washer (see my 01/17/05 entry above), I went to see the manager in the Sears store where I bought the machine. I told him of the load noise and of the Sears technician's visit. I told him that the front loader's problems have been reported on the internet. I also showed him the shaft and the 1 spider arm attached to it. Without hardly any hesitation, he offered a $350 reduction in price on a new washer. I accepted his offer and bought a new Whirlpool top loader. I also bought a 5 year extended warranty for $179. I paid $700 for my old washer not $600 as I said originally above.

If I had a backup washer at home, I would have tried to fix my old machine.

If I hadn't accidentally found this appliance blog in early January, I probably would have simply gone out and purchased a new washer at full price (thinking that without a warranty, I had no case).

Many thanks to you and others who gave repair advice. Thank you, Jake, for suggesting approaching the Sears' manager.
jimo

[Jake]

Great to Hear the good news about the Credit he gave you on a new washer Jimo!:cool:

The Sears Store Managers are willing to work with customers to keep them coming back. This is another great example!:)

Im Glad it all worked out.

Jake

[Franko!]

I also have the Sears front loader washer. (Canadian model 970-C40042-00).

The other day during the spin cycle, there was a very,very loud noise, like a very fast click, click, click.

Today I removed the top cover and saw a 4" round hole in the rear plastic tub! After searching the web and reading this post I check how smooth the tub turns. It seems to turn fine, no "bad bearing" noises. I also tried to push and pull on the steel tub to check for any end play / excessive bearing play and it seemed OK.

Any thoughts?

-Franko!

[Jake]

Hi,

I am not familiar with Sears Canadian model#s, Jeff1 or Dan O. may be better at the answer to this one.:cool:

Jake

[jeff1]

Hi,

**Today I removed the top cover and saw a 4" round hole in the rear plastic tub! **

New back 1/2 of the outer shell required at minimum.

Where exactly is the hole?

**Canadian model 970-C40042-00**

Got some close model#'s to work for me online, Frigidaire/Kelvinator built front load Jake, -basically- same as the 417.######## models.

**The other day during the spin cycle, there was a very,very loud noise, like a very fast click, click, click**

If the tub support is not broken and the rear bearing is not worn then we would have to surmise that possibly something got between the tanks and was being thrown around making the noise....and possibly the hole.

Check your use and care manual for the warranty....some of the inner baskets and back 1/2 of the shell will have an extended parts warranty.

jeff.

[Jake]

jeff1 wrote:

Jake, -basically- same as the 417.######## models.





Thanks Jeff, i didn't know that, thats good to know.:cool:

Jake

[Dan O.]

Jake wrote:
I am not familiar with Sears Canadian model#s
Some of the newer Sears Canada products are listed at the Sears US site (as Jeff taught me) including that particular one (see the following link). Why not? They're just about all made in the USA now anyway! :X

LINK > Canadian Sears washer model 970-C40042-00 Exploded Parts View (http://www3.sears.com/Paul/model_search.asp?model_num=970-C40042-00)

JFYI

Dan O.
Appliance411.ca (http://www.appliance411.ca/?ref411=Frigidaire+washer)
The Appliance Information Site
=D~~~~~~

[Franko!]

jeff1 New back 1/2 of the outer shell required at minimum. Where exactly is the hole?

I just took these pictures:
http://www.motorvate.ca/vfr/waser.jpg

The funny thing is the drum tuns fairly smooth my hand, and does not made any sounds!

My guess is that I will have to pull appart the tub assy, and see what is going on inside.

These new washers are not like the older ones. This one is 4 years old, my other one was 15 year old hand me down that I gave to a friend and she is still using it.

Thanks for your help. You guys rock!

-Frank

[spud72]

jnicosia wrote:
I forgot to mention the seal, although it is identified in the document I offered. The document was co-authored by a bearing specialist and he indicated that there should not be a problem in removing the old bearings carefully without a puller. It may not be practical timewise for the pro's like Jeff who are on a tight time budget, but for the homeowner (do-it-yourselfer) it should not be a too difficult. I know know of 3 guys that have done this repair with success, and 0 whom have failed.
Folks, I can confirm that the bearings removal/installation requires no "specialty" tools whatsoever for the job, other that some extremely basic tools that anyone, even a basic home tool set would have, let alone an appliance tech.

An appliace tech with a 1/2 glass of mechanical aptitude would be able to rip the bearings out of the drum within 20 minutes of removing the inner drum assembly from the washer. With 3/4 of a glass full of mechanical aptitude would have those bearings and seal out in about 5 minutes more or less. This is not rocket science here and very simple stuff... and to be honest kind of ticks me off that nobody seemingly took 10 minutes and clued into possibly replacing the bearings instead of the outer drum as the OEM sells the part. Anyone with some mechanical aptitude would see that these things aren't "cast" into the housing which preculde them for being replaced, it seemed many were just taking the OEMs word for it... and it isn't the first time an OEM tried to make a customer pay for far more than is required. But if it's under warranty or they are willing to pay, what the heck, right?

The most difficult part of the operation is removing the drum assembly in the first place, and you know, that ain't too tough.. just a bit of time involved.

I sometimes wonder how these spiders go bad like how it's been posted.. have people been running them with failed bearings for *that long* to cause the *spider* to crack? If so, do they not hear the change in noise from regular operation? Or, is this something totally different and not bearing/seal related that is causing the spider to "crack"?

[spud72]

Franko! wrote:
The funny thing is the drum tuns fairly smooth my hand, and does not made any sounds!
[/quote]
If you could "feel" it, they would be really shot. The bearings could feel fine at a hand turn, of say, 10 rpm versus say a spin speed of 1000. When mine were failing, it sounded normal during the regular wash cycle. It wasn't until spinning at 800+ (or whatever the regular spin speed of the frigemores are), and then there was a howl that wasn't normal, and the howl became apparent.

[Jake]

Dan O. wrote:
Some of the newer Sears Canada products are listed at the Sears US site (as Jeff taught me) including that particular one (see the following link). Why not? They're just about all made in the USA now anyway! :XLINK > Canadian Sears washer model 970-C40042-00 Exploded Parts View (http://www3.sears.com/Paul/model_search.asp?model_num=970-C40042-00)



But, at least my 2002 Ford F-150 was built in Canada.:D

And have had NOT one problem with it period.:cool:Great Work in Canada!:)

Jake

[jeff1]

**I just took these pictures**

Nice pics!!

Never seen one break like that before!!

No water stains either so it would appear there was no crack that evenually "let go".

It's even in an odd spot, an off-balanced load crashing around probably wouldn't do that either.

Strange!

jeff.

[Franko!]

Update:

2 spiders are broken due to corrosion. There was a 1" x 1" piece of the spider that got caught and pop out a 3" x 3" hole in the back of the rear shell.

The funny thing is the bearings are fine. They turn very smooth with no play.

I can post pics if needed.

My next step to visit Sears catalog, show them the pics and take it from there. Wish me luck!

-Frank

[jeff1]

**Wish me luck!**

LUCK!!

Thankx for the update!!

jeff.

[Joe Who]

Thanks for this informative discussion. I am working on a friend's washer (sears model 970 series) that made quite a racket on the spin cycle. A spring and shock were broken (it obviously couldn't spin at full speed in that condition!) and after replacing them it was still noisy. It sounds like sand or something grainy inside the rear tub when I turned it slowly, and made a loud humming noise when at full speed.

I took the tub apart but can't get the shaft off the rear bearing. Do I need a fancy puller? Can you email me the proceedure to remove the shaft from the bearing?

If the spider is broken I may have to order an entire basket as Sears doesn't sell the spider seperately? What do you suggest I do if I find a broken/damaged spider but the basket is fine.

Thanks again for your help!

[jnicosia]

Don't worry about your bearings in this case, since you have a rear outer tub with a hole blown clear through it, you have to buy a new one, and it comes with the bearings and seals "built-in" You have no choice. The part runs about $180.

If you want the document that I have that outlines the process for taking the machine apart, to do this repair let me know. I will post my email address over the next 2 replies (just so some of the spam engines that scan the internet don't get it and send me junk.)

You will not need any special tools for this repair. The trickiest part is the buckets or milk crates etc to prop the drum up onto as you take it off the internal suspension springs and shocks. You will do great and save yourself a ton of money doing this yourself, and get lots of personal satisfaction from working with your hands to accomplish such a significant repair

My bet is that the internal drum support bracket isbroken, and blew thru the outer tub enclosure. It seems to bebecoming common in areas with corrosive water. The drum basket is stainless, but the supports are not, and they can give out. The basket should be under warranty. I know that Marcone Appliance parts will honor the warranty even if you are not a technician.

The first part of my email is: john_nicosia@

[jnicosia]

the last part of my email is @hotmail.com

Talk to you later.

[jnicosia]

OK I am mixing up my replies here. It was someone in the first page of this post that had the hole in his tub.

Now for the last poster...

The spider support arms are not replaceable, they are rivetted to the basket. But sears and I think frigidaire have a 25 year warranty on that part. HOWEVER you will have a hard time getting them to honor the warranty without also paying them to do the repair..nice trick huh ?

But you are smarter than that! Many parts dealers will honor the warranty for you (you will need a copy of the warranty from your owners manual and your receipt of purchase of the machine). You may want to visit a few appliance parts sales stores and tell your story. I have been in touch with 5-6 guys that have been successful in this endeavor. You may be told "No" a few places, but many parts stores will help.

Get your new basket (you may have to pay the parts dealer for shipping and a small handling fee) and follow the directions in my document.

Take Care.

-John

[davej]

John, I am interested in your document about the tub removal, I just discovered that my seal between the two tubs is leaking and needs to be relaced. My machine is same type as the one being discussed and is about 2.5 years old, do you think it is wise to replace the bearing when the tub is disassembled, as of right now I don't have any bearing issues, but don't want to disassemble the washer again two months from now if the bearing goes.

thanks for your advice

[jnicosia]

DaveJ,

If you are handy, you will have about 85% of the work done in disassembly and reassembly in doing the drum gasket, to do the bearings. It will cost you about another $40 in parts for the 2 bearings and seal. You may be able to get away without it though, there are thousands of people with these washers that never have a problem with the bearings. Mine is 4 years old and no problems. A friend has one that is7 years old, no problems. So it depends on your personality I guess, belt and suspenders kinda guy ?

IF you want the instructions for your files, just drop me an email at the address spread across the 2 emails previously posted by me and I will be happy to send it to you.

Sincerely,

-John

[Franko!]

Final Update:

Sears replaced the metal tub and rear shell under warranty!
Since I had the washer appart, I only paid for the labor to assemble the shell. This way I get warranty on the parts replaced, and reduced labor cost. Also tech *HATE* it when someone takes it appart, and they have to put it back together. Total cost $111 (CDN) :)

Sears was great, they even covered the $45 "visit charge" after a little negotiation.

BTW the shell parts are made in Canada, so the cost is much less than the US. Example: rear shell $112 CDN! The US price is about $170. If you need a part, and live close to the boarder you might want to buy it in Canada. See http://www.sears.ca/e/ma/prodinfo/wbfs/wbfsptsv.htm for a phone number.

[Jake]

Glad to hear the good news Franko!

Yea, As a tech myself, i cringe every time i see a Appliance already apart before i get there.

Im glad it doesn't happen much, or i would be a nervous wreak!:shock:

Jake

[davej]

John, I have tried your email address several times, Is it possible that the email address above is not working? I would really like to get this document that you discussed as I believe it will make the repair easier. Thanks My address is dj3828 at yahoo

Dave

[Franko!]

Thank you for your help Jake!

Until the next thing breaks....

[Jake]

Your Welcome Franko!

Take Care.:cool:

Jake

[speedbuggy]

I'm also having bearing problems with my Kenmore front loader.Iwould certanly appreciate the information you offered.E-mail over the next 2 replies---speedbuggy2112

Thank You, Eric

[speedbuggy]

@msn.com I'll let you know how it turns out. Eric

[jnicosia]

just sent it to you.

Jeff or someone who has control overthis web-site. Can you post my document somewhere on the site so that I do not have to send it to everyone, they can pull a copy off the site ?

Thanks !



-John

[Jake]

Ok John,

You can email it to me webmaster@applianceblog.com (mailto:webmaster@applianceblog.com)

Is it a .pdf or .txt or .doc file?

Jake

[jnicosia]

.pdf