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Kenmore 665.176040300 Long Cycle Time

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GMann

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This unit (SN FP0801511) will be 2yrs old at end of June, and is only used about 3-4 times/wk on Normal Cycle.

The cycle runs varying times from 90min (minimum according to manual) up to 3hrs with differing times inbewteen (2hrs...). Water temp at faucet after 1min runis 131deg down to 120 deg if hot water has been used.

Ran diagnostics shown in service bulletin that came with unit. It has 11 intervals going from 11 down to 1 (the last). Intervals 3,2 and 1 differ from what is shown.

Interval 3: Quick Rinse-On (ok), Washing-On (ok), Sanitized-On (not shown in bulletin)

Interval 2: Normal-On (ok), Sensing-On (ok), Sensing-On (not shown in bulletin)

Interval 1: Quick Rinse-On (ok), Washing-On (ok), Sensing-On (not shown in bulletin)

All other intervals appear as shown and all intervals including 1-3 last the duration shown (no aborted cycles).

According to the bulletin, the heater is part of the load only in interval 10, not in 1-3. Intervals 1-3 appear to test the vent, washing motor, and soil pressure switch. But the diagnostics do not appear to point to those items nor would they be included under the bulletin's recommended troubleshooting items.

The problem appears to be with the heater circuit which includes 2 thermistors, the electronic control, and heater (in addition to the door switch and thermal fuse which would affect other circuits if they were bad).

I suspect the control which I should be able to get sears to replace for free under 2yr warranty on control, but if it is something else, I will end up paying large repair bill for repairing a component I could replace myself for much lower cost.

I can't get to the thermistors or heater to check continuity/resistance without pulling unit out, and if it was a thermistor with intermittent problem, could be hard to test anyway. So was hoping diagnostics would pinpoint problem.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to interpret them. Any suggestions?
 

GMann

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Sorry, correction to LEDs during diagnostics:

Interval 3: QuickRinse=On (ok), Washing=On (ok), Sanitized=Off (should be on)

Interval 2: Normal=On (ok), Sensing=On (should be off)

Interval 1: QuickRinse=On (ok), Washing=On (ok), Sensing=On (should be off)
 

Jake

Appliance Tech - Admin
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Aug 24, 2004
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Hi,

The problem is at times it runs too long?

Do all the dishes seem to be clean with or without the long cycle?

Do you use the water temp booster, or the rinse temp booster?

To test your element, just put it in the diagnostics mode and let it run through, when the test is over, drip some water over the element, it should sizzle, if its not hot with no sizzle, then ohm out the element.

To get to the element, i take off the water pump. Then get a small crescent wrench and put your arm all the way back, then you can feel the long hub nut that screws onto the element on each side.

You can get better access by taking off the front door panel assembly.

Jake
 

GMann

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1. Yes, it seems to me it runs too long (up to 1.5 hrs more than minimum even with hot water).

2. Hard to tell. Wife always "washes" dishes before putting in dw (yes I know). So they look clean going in. I did note when daughter was back from school that some dishes still had soil on them after washing but I think she put them in and let them sit in there without first running quick rinse or rinsing off, so it might have been dried on to start with.

3. She just uses the normal cycle with no options.

4. Will try sizzle test after diagnostics, but documentation indicates that heater is only on during diagnostic interval 10 (2nd in test) for 5 secs. Last 3 cycles w/o heater last 1 min each.

5. Problem with getting to heater to test is that this is a tall tub, and clearance to floor not enough to get my arm in, but will check out your suggestions. I installed the dw myself w/o much difficulty, so I could always pull it out, but its just a pain.

Thanks for your reply
 

Jake

Appliance Tech - Admin
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Messages
105,199
Location
McMullen Valley, Arizona
1. Yes, it seems to me it runs too long (up to 1.5 hrs more than minimum even with hot water).

2. Hard to tell. Wife always "washes" dishes before putting in dw (yes I know). So they look clean going in. I did note when daughter was back from school that some dishes still had soil on them after washing but I think she put them in and let them sit in there without first running quick rinse or rinsing off, so it might have been dried on to start with.
Its best to leave some soil on the dishes, so the detergent has something to act on.

3. She just uses the normal cycle with no options.

4. Will try sizzle test after diagnostics, but documentation indicates that heater is only on during diagnostic interval 10 (2nd in test) for 5 secs. Last 3 cycles w/o heater last 1 min each.
True, but even with it going off and on, it will still be very hot to touch if the elements working, when the test ends.

5. Problem with getting to heater to test is that this is a tall tub, and clearance to floor not enough to get my arm in, but will check out your suggestions. I installed the dw myself w/o much difficulty, so I could always pull it out, but its just a pain.
True, but i always take off the front panel assembly first, just take out all of the screws on the inside of the door panel on both sides, there will be about 3-5 screws on each side. You will then have plenty of room underneath to work.

Thanks for your reply
Anytime.:cool:
 

GMann

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OK. Tested Heater with VOM at terminals, showed infinite so replaced it even tho <2yrs old. New heater tested ok, but wouldn't pass "sizzle" test after diagnostics. Did sizzle after end of a normal cycle, and DW is much hotter after drying now.

Also tested Hi-lim thermostat and thermistor.Thermostat is closed/shorted at room temp which is ok, can't test at high limit.

Thermistershowed 57.1kOhm at room temp which seems close given spec at(48-52K @ 77F, 12-13kOhm @ 140F), although it seems a bit high for room temp of 68-70F.

Reran diagnostics, and exactly same displays for all intervals as before.Am still concerned that a problem exists with control unit.

Tech Service Doc w/ DW says:

"Note 2. ... As a means of testing the accuracy of the thermistor circuit, the control will turn on the SANITIZED LED in Interval 3 of Diagnostics when it detects a thermistor resistance of 10k Ohms, or at least a resistance that is within a 1-bit range around 10k based on the resolution of the control's A/D circuit."

The SANITIZED LED is not on in Interval 3. Should it be if thermistor is accurate? Seems like it shouldn't unless temp is >140F, but don't know resolution or acceptable tolerance.

"Note 3. The Diagnostics Test cycle will illuminate the SENSING/SOAKING LED throughout the operating portion of the cycle that follows the initial display test interval whenever it detects a short circuit on the pressure switch (soil sensor) input. The Diagnostics Cycle also monitors the normally open soil-sensing pressure switch input for a "stuck closed" condition by aborting wash interval 3 and skipping immediately to drain interval 1 if the control detects a closed pressure switch."

The SENSING LED is on for intervals 2 and 1 only,and all intervals run full length.

Can't figure out if: 1) I am reading this wrong, 2)doc is wrong/doesn't apply to this model, 3) control module is bad, 4) thermistor is bad, or going bad. 5)any combination of above

The LED readouts for intervals 3,2,1 (last 3) do not seem to match doc for normal or failed operation.

Also confused because I am certain that even if heater did not operate, Normal cycle should not have continued for up to 2-3 hours if control module was operating properly. There should have been a max amount of time (not given in doc) the unit would wait for water to reach target temp, then continue.

Found this on web:

for whirlpool "voyager platform" based systems which seems to match most if not all of my Kenmore. Not sure if I have "new gen", "voyager", "cheetah", or other platform. It shows max times to reach target temps, but still no help answering my questions.

Main concern is to determine if any problem exists with control module since it is still under warranty for about a month and is very expensive to replace, but a service call if it is not defective will cost almost as much.

Thanks again for your advice.
 

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