New Element in a 1957 Hotpoint wall oven

wcs2

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Hi,
I need to replace the bake element in a 1957 Hotpoint wall oven (model 10RJ10) and have two questions. The part number is 660885 and the replacement part seems to be WB44X5043 from what I can find. They are different in size and shape, but the new one will fit in my oven. So my first question is, if the listed replacement part is a different shape and slightly different size than the original, do I need to care as long as it fits?

My second question is about the terminals: On the original, they simply plug in to the ceramic block mounted in the back of the stove. On the replacement, it looks like they need to be screwed in. Does anyone know how to resolve this? Do I solder in the old spades to the new terminal? Or is there a better way?

Thanks!

Here's a comparison of the old and new:
comparison.jpg
 

Dan O.

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Remove ceramic block and direct wire

They are different in size and shape, but the new one will fit in my oven. So my first question is, if the listed replacement part is a different shape and slightly different size than the original, do I need to care as long as it fits?
An element with a reasonably close wattage should be considered. That does however look to be the current factory suggested replacement element and should be acceptable.

On the original, they simply plug in to the ceramic block mounted in the back of the stove. On the replacement, it looks like they need to be screwed in. Does anyone know how to resolve this?
The ceramic block would be removed from the oven, the element screwed to the oven cavity and the wires attached directly onto the element terminals. And yes, the oven may need to be removed to accomplish that.

Do I solder in the old spades to the new terminal?
NO. BTW The spades of the original element appear worn which would make them defective and also the mating contacts in the block likely bad as well. If you happened to find a direct replacement element, that block should be replaced as well but it is also discontinued. A 'wire in' element is likely the best route to go regardless.

Dan O.
 
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wcs2

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Thank you, Dan. I've ordered the replacement and it does have screw terminals, so I will take out the block. Does that point of contact need to be protected in any way, like wrapped in electrical tape or something sturdier, or is it fine just screwed together and then screwed into place?
 

Dan O.

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Does that point of contact need to be protected in any way, like wrapped in electrical tape
Tape to keep the wire terminals from touching any surrounding metal shouldn't hurt but might not be necessary. There may be lots of room around it once the block has been removed. Make sure the element is screwed securely to the oven wall. That also provides a ground for safety.

JMO

Dan O.
 

wcs2

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EDIT & a question, because I might be clinically stupid:
I just realized that the third wire is the same as the first two, it's just that the third plug slipped out of the ceramic block.
The middle wire is green. Was green used as the ground back in the 50s? Accordingly, is that the one I should wrap up?
The fact that the oven is getting hot at all makes me question what I'm writing, but the fact that it isn't working properly has me wondering.
Any thoughts?


An update: the parts came quickly and I was able to swap them out today. Removing the old ceramic block was easy and I screwed in the wires exactly as they were aligned on the ceramic block. Everything was going fine with the initial test run, although I was noticing that it was taking a lot longer to reach temperature than it used to. So I opened it up to check my oven thermometer and then sparks flew at the back and the breaker tripped.

The element is tightly screwed to the back. The two wires are tightened firmly and wrapped in electrical tape. The cavity behind it seems to have insulation but not much else, so I doubt they're bumping into anything.

The only thing I can think of is the ground: The third port of the old block was, I believe the ground (instead of screwing into the back, it clipped in (see picture below). It's fully wrapped up in electrical tape and tucked into the back cavity for safe keeping (at first I tested the connection without it being taped up and the breaker tripped immediately).
Can anyone think of another reason for this type of behavior? Bad element maybe?

20190228_115653.jpg
 
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wcs2

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Update to my update - in my rush to get this done, I did not really look at it carefully enough. Of course the middle wire was the ground, of course the third plug that "looked different" just looked like that because it slipped out of the ceramic block and the other two did not. Because I've never seen one of these before, I went with what I saw rather than what made sense and didn't stop to make sense out of what I saw.
Now that I've taken a look at the wiring chart on the side of the stove, I'm slapping my forehead.
I'd delete the above post if I could, but I don't seem to be able to.
 

wcs2

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It's complicated. When I turned the power back on, the oven turned on - even though it was set to Off. It got up to 175 just sitting there. When I turn the oven on to bake, it heats up (the dial needs to be recalibrated, but I'm going to wait until the rest of this is sorted out).

So the element works, but suddenly the oven is misbehaving. My guess is that it didn't appreciate me miswiring it, but I'm not sure where to start troubleshooting this.
 

Dan O.

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Short to ground?

even though it was set to Off. It got up to 175
If the bake element is getting warm (not glowing red hot) even in the OFF position, it sounds like there is a short to ground.

Make sure neither of the element terminals nor their connecting wires are touching a ground.
 

wcs2

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Could it be caused by the fact that the ground wire on the element side is no longer connected to anything? It used to be connected to the center terminal on the element, but this replacement part only has two terminals. Is there something I should attach that ground to? it's currently wrapped in tape so it doesn't hit anything random.
 

Dan O.

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Could it be caused by the fact that the ground wire on the element side is no longer connected to anything?
No, lack of the ground wire would not cause it.

The original ground wire should be able to be totally removed as the replacement element is grounded when screwed to the cavity. The plugin element was not, hence the ground wire.

Make sure neither of the element terminals or their connecting wires are touching any metal of the oven.

Dan O.
 

wcs2

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Thanks for all your help, Dan. I really appreciate it. So, I just tried the following: removed the element, turned the circuit breaker on: Light is off. Connected the element, turned the circuit breaker on: Light is on.

I have tried this with two elements (where I found one, there were two, so I took them both) and had the same results. The black and red wires are connected to the element, the green wire is wrapped in electrical tape.

Nothing is visibly touching anything, but I cannot vouch for what is going on in the cavity behind the oven wall. At this point, would you recommend I pull the oven out to check that cavity for foreign objects, like a loose screw or something?

Or will the answer be in the wires I can see?
 

Dan O.

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I cannot vouch for what is going on in the cavity behind the oven wall.
There is just as important as anywhere else. Absolutely ruling it out will be necessary to narrow the possible causes.

JMO
 

wcs2

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Thanks. That will take some time, but I'll report back.
 

wcs2

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When I took the rear panel off and examined all the wires, they were all intact and no metal in the wire ws touching any other metal.
BUT I saw that the hinge of the new element was touching the side of cutaway for the element to slip into. Note the black scoring in the picture below. I'm hesitant to say that that is the sole issue, as having the element unscrewed and away from the wall still had the light on when the oven was off. Or could it be that that was the case because the element wasn't screwed in and therefore wasn't grounded?

I'll try that combination, too, I guess. I don't see anything strange with any of the wires, and they all trace solidly up to the thermostat. Would I be right in thinking that, if it still happens after eliminating the contact with the oven wall, that the thermostat would have to be replaced?

This is turning into quite the adventure...

20190303_140957.jpg
 

Dan O.

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Short damaged control??

BUT I saw that the hinge of the new element was touching the side of cutaway for the element to slip into. Note the black scoring in the picture below.
That black is a sign of a short. It touched something electrical! Just the hinge touching the hole in the oven did NOT do that. That area touched something electrical or something electrical touch it right there.

Or could it be that that was the case because the element wasn't screwed in and therefore wasn't grounded?
No. The ground only comes into play when there's a short. The functioning of the element and other systems is not dependent on it and will function with or without a ground. It is a safety precaution only.

having the element unscrewed and away from the wall still had the light on when the oven was off.
Than that short may have damaged one of the controls when it occurred and fused one of the control's contacts. Sorry

Dan O.
 

wcs2

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OK. Taking a deep breath. If only electrical contact would cause that, then it must have happened when I miswired the element. That red wire must have hit right there and the damage was done when I turned it on, before I realized what I did and corrected it.
So, the bottom line is, the thermostat is likely fried and needs to be replaced (if I can find one)?
Can thermostats be rebuilt, or should I just hunt for a new one?
The original part is #602435 - the research I've done shows the replacement part to be wb21x5109. If I can't find one, are universal thermostats worth trying?
 

Dan O.

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If only electrical contact would cause that, then it must have happened when I miswired the element. That red wire must have hit right there and the damage was done when I turned it on, before I realized what I did and corrected it.
A wire could have been squished between it and caused the short. Check the wiring close to the element for damage to its insulation covering.

The original part is #602435 - the research I've done shows the replacement part to be wb21x5109.
I have 602435 substituting to part # WB21X5068 and then it substituting to # WB21X5212. Your WB21X5109 also subs to # WB21X5212 so any of those part numbers would likely work in your oven... if you can locate one. Most places list them as NLA and not available. You might find someone that still has old stock... if you're very lucky.

There are a couple companies that repair older stove thermostats. I don't know about that type of control but you can ask. It is a very common GE thermostat design. (BTW. The sensor capillary tube is part of the control. Do NOT disconnect it from the control body or cut it! :disgust:

LINK > The Old Appliance Club

Dan O.
 
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wcs2

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Thanks again! Interesting, though, about the different part numbers. I'm working off of this image I found of a 1976 parts catalog. Is it possible the thermostat that's in there now was an incorrect replacement?
This is also interesting because, based on the diagram on the side of the oven, I would have expected to find thermostat 600907 (see the second picture). Since it seems like you have much better information than me, do you think the thermostat I have was a replacement part for the original?
(I figure, the more potential part numbers I can hunt for, the luckier I might be in finding one.)

thermostat replacements.jpg

20180522_094018.jpg
 

Dan O.

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I'm working off of this image I found of a 1976 parts catalog.
The original part number I came up with was from the parts list that was dated 1959, on microfiche. My cross reference came from a reliable source although I don't know where it originated. They were a GE parts distributor so I assume it came from GE at some point.

Sometimes a replacement part will come with extra pieces, eg. screws or instructions so might not be the exact number of just the control itself. 602435 could have included 600907 thermostat plus screws and/or instructions.

As I said, all those part numbers are replaced by the same control and all should be basically interchangeable, same calibration, same shaft off position, comparable capillary length.
 
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